Holmes and Watson
Occassionally on the internet you encounter people who give a lot of thought to the problems which confront Homo Sapiens going forward here. Such a person is Ashvin Pandurangi of The Automatic Earth. Quite a few others I have run into as well, Steve from Virginia who runs Economic Undertow and Gail the Actuary who runs Our Finite World are some others I have had the great pleasure of engaging in debate on the questions that confront us all. None so much as Ashvin though, who is much like me in the respect he never quits on an argument and obligates himself to responding in great detail and at great length all the time to any and all comers in such discussions.
Over the last few months, Ashvin and I, along with numerous other commenters on the questions we are concerned with have been battling it out, pushing forth our varying perpectives on how best to handle the problems we are confronted with here. Those being the clear and obvious collapse well underway of the monetary system we all depend on, along with the also obvious depletion of global resources not limited to just energy, but water as well, and finally the clear OVERSHOOT of Human Population on the planet.
I have great respect for Ashvin and the philosphy he espouses on the pages of The Automatic Earth. I have never run across anyone else ever on the net who thinks in as much detail as he does about all these questions. At the same time though, I seriously disagree with Ashvin on a few core principles, and that is where the Holmes-Watson stuff comes into play.
Even though Ashvin and myself are in general agreement about the deflationary nature of the monetary collapse and also many of the Fascist outcomes resultant from that, we have some serious disagreements on basic MORAL principles. So regardless of how any discussion we have begins, whether it is with a Greek Default or the validity of OWS Non-Violent Protests or any other manifestations of the spin down, we always get back round to arguing about fundamental postulates about God, Religion and Morality. All to the good there IMHO, because if you cannot resolve those fundamental issues, you got no chance whatsoever of resoving the practical problems which face us now.
We have been working through this inside the Diner and also on the pages of TAE as well. All to the good there also, because it is the most important debate to consider of our time, far more important than whether Obama-sama or Catcher’s Mitt gets dropped into the POTUS spot in the next go round of faux-Democracy.
I do not know if Ashvin and I will ever work out these existentail questions in a way both of us can agree on. I do believe however that it is important to continue the exploration of them in order to find the best pathway possible out of the current mess we are immersed in. A challenge always, and I am extremely greatful that the Internet has made it possible for Ashvin and myself to debate these questions, and for all the rest of you folks also to be a part of that debate. Not everybody writes as much as Ashvin and I do, but IMHO everyone who reads theses Blogs and Forums thinks on the problems quite a bit these days. All to the good again. Be aware. Understand the issues. Figure out your own plans to handle what is coming down the pipe here.. Best of luck to all of you in this endeavor.
In the most recent of the debates between myself and Ashvin, he used the Classic Line of “No SHIT Sherlock!” with respect to a farily obvious deduction I made on how social extermination plans often will play out. This is a most interesting metaphor here, because of the roles both of us play in how we approach these questions, and it will be a metaphor for me from here on in. You see, Ashvin is very much the Button Down Dr. Watson always, and yours truly here is always the somewhat crazed Detective looking for answers. I respect Watson, but I do not think like he does. I think Watson respects me also, but he thinks I am off the Deep End and hopes to save me from myself. So be it.
Below follows the latest in the Holmes-Watson Debate. I expect it will continue in various forms until the Internet Goes Dark. To Watson I say, as always, it is Elementary Sir. LOL.
I thought the whole point of this “thought experiment” of yours was to see what types of economic and sociopolitical dynamics will realistically happen in upcoming years?
No, if you read what Surly has written in this thread and I write all the time, the purpose of the Thought Experiment is to SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN.
The principle is thus: We are faced with a Die Off of astounding proportions, at LEAST 50% of the population is going to the Great Beyond here no matter WHAT we do. As I work it out in the TE, if we do not get rid of the vermin running this show, this Die Off is going to be 90% and quite possibly 100%, aka an EXTINCTION LEVEL EVENT. Bold and Caps together doesn’t emphasize this enough. We are at serious risk of the END of Human Sentience. If you value Biblical Morality more than that maybe you risk this, but I do not so highly value morality which makes little sense in this world. “Go Forth and Multiply?” WTF? That is the LAST thing we need to do these days. My moral principle here is to Save as Many as I Can.
We would all choose OMMP if we knew how to do it in a perfect way and one that is in harmony with our personal beliefs/values. But, REALISTICALLY, we know that there are a dime a dozen problematic issues wrapped up in this thing, and I am just pointing out to you one of the major ones that I see. And I know I’m not the only one, because other people have mentioned how it could be co-opted by the Illuminati and what not. I am simply taking that logic a step further and positing that it may already be a part of THEIR master plan to deceive the masses (as always) and warm them up to their faux Orkin Man. If that is true (and I maintain that it is a much more likely outcome than your OMMP with truly righteous intentions), then we are simply playing into their hands when we advocate for it. We are helping to sow and water the psychological seeds that they would like to see fully grown.
Clearly not everyone would choose the OMMP no matter what, that is what you yourself argue all the time. You argue that some principles are so inviolable that in fact it might be better to let ourselves go EXTINCT than to violate them.
I am fully aware of all the risks involved here in any kind of Plan to Manage Death, either Illuminati generated in an IMP or J6P generated in an OMMP. What I am quite certain of now though is that SOMEBODY is going to be managing this Death and the battle before us is all about WHO gets to do the managing here. Most often through history the Illuminati have been the Managers, but not 100% of the time. Evidence of that is in the Reign of Terror of Robespierre and the fact Nicholas and Alexandra Romanoff were filled full of LEAD in a Ruskie Basement and Marie Antoinette’s HEAD went rolling down the Champs d’Elysee like a Bowling Ball. The Elite do not manage the death so well 100% of the time, and occassionally they DO get the short end of the stick here. This is one of those times we have to make sure J6P runs the Death Show, not the Illuminati. In fact there is probably no time in all of recorded history when this was more important, because never before has the risk on the other side been the complete and total anhilliation of the human species, along with probably all other life forms above the level of the Tardigrades.
If we do NOT step up to the plate here and take control of this, then we are in fact going to be responsible for our own extinction. I for one am not in favor of that, so I run my TEs to find a WAY OUT. I don’t like what I see as the only road out here anymore than you do Ashvin, but it is a Morton’s Fork. The signpost up ahead says Mass Death to the left and Extinction to the right. I will go left here.
I don’t think there’s much left to debate down this spiritual road. You are convinced that spiritual truths have zero application to human dynamics in the “real world”, and you are unwilling to do any research about the spiritual perspectives and principles that you casually dismiss.
All of the evil you see happening now and in the future is exactly the same evils that those of faith see, but they have fundamentally different explanations for why it is here and therefore fundamentally different views on what we can do about it.
You and I will say that we knew all this stuff was coming down the pipeline for years, and they will say “oh really? well half this crap was prophesied in the Bible 2000 years ago, and in some cases even earlier…” Even you like to quote Revelation 18 as being relevant to how monetary collapse would go down today.
If you still can’t understand why their faith is critical to what they think is an acceptable course of action and also what they believe will happen in the future, both to them personally and the world as a whole, then there’s nothing more I can say to make you understand that.
You think they’re wrong, they think they’re right, and I think they are a lot more right than you are. That’s all there is to it.
No, that is NOT all there is to it.
I understand well enough why people have faiths of varying sorts, and I understand also well enough IMHO the Christian Faith also.
The problem with about all of these faiths in a world of serious overshoot is they have limited applicability if you want to Save as Many as You Can. I don’t think all those folks who generated up these Faiths were “wrong” in their assumptions when the world was new and resources seemed limitless. Conditions have changed here now though, and for much the same reason that the monetary system we run based on growth will not work, so also the “truths” many hold near and dear to their moral center ALSO will not work.
People do not let go of truths they think are universal very easily, only really when personal survival becomes the name of the game are such truths really tested vor veracity. A few souls will hold onto their truths right to the bitter end, and get Nailed to a Cross for it. The fact they will do that is quite remarkable, but it doesn’t make them Right all the time either.